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spaman
Apprentice

USA
128 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2008 :  9:45:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now i am confused, first thying is you are saying thats its impossable to create hydrogen from the water4gas system, and now you say a 6 year old knows that, what is it, does it work or not!!!!

The video dones not say anything about burning water, he states "Gas from Water".

So i take it that the hydrogen and oxygen from water do burn (I am much older than 6) and have added that mix to my vehicle combustion chamber and because of that mixture with the gasoline mix there is a COMPLETE burn due to hydrogen being added producing a increase in power adding mileage, oh thats not possible is it Aaron. Maybe a little more research is needed, like a google search for Browns Gas will help with this subject matter, but for me i have already proven it not only to myself first, but many others who trust my judgement and have seen it work.

In the end (and this is the end for me) I get to cheet OPEC and the BIG OIL COMPANYS a bunch of US Dollars and keep them for myself, all from a jar of water and baking soda, I LOVE IT and IT WORKS!

Oh, by the way, i am off for the next six weeks and have proven this to a very large trucking company here in NC, i will be installing a system on one of their over the road tractors, i have offerd a 30 day trial with a 2 mpg improvement (that will be a 33% increase) or i will give him $900.00. I have put my money on the line, by the way i have created an escrow account for this offer so the money will be available to him if the system does not work, unlike the link you posted above, a 1 million dollar reward that nobody will ever see, and better yet they require a $5000.00 entry fee, talk about a scam.
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mrgone
Nobel Prize Winner

USA
1176 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2008 :  09:09:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaman

Now i am confused, first thying is you are saying thats its impossable to create hydrogen from the water4gas system, and now you say a 6 year old knows that, what is it, does it work or not!!!!

The video dones not say anything about burning water, he states "Gas from Water".

So i take it that the hydrogen and oxygen from water do burn (I am much older than 6) and have added that mix to my vehicle combustion chamber and because of that mixture with the gasoline mix there is a COMPLETE burn due to hydrogen being added producing a increase in power adding mileage, oh thats not possible is it Aaron. Maybe a little more research is needed, like a google search for Browns Gas will help with this subject matter, but for me i have already proven it not only to myself first, but many others who trust my judgement and have seen it work.

In the end (and this is the end for me) I get to cheet OPEC and the BIG OIL COMPANYS a bunch of US Dollars and keep them for myself, all from a jar of water and baking soda, I LOVE IT and IT WORKS!

Oh, by the way, i am off for the next six weeks and have proven this to a very large trucking company here in NC, i will be installing a system on one of their over the road tractors, i have offerd a 30 day trial with a 2 mpg improvement (that will be a 33% increase) or i will give him $900.00. I have put my money on the line, by the way i have created an escrow account for this offer so the money will be available to him if the system does not work, unlike the link you posted above, a 1 million dollar reward that nobody will ever see, and better yet they require a $5000.00 entry fee, talk about a scam.



Now that's putting your money where your mouth is. These must be some big trucks if 2 MPG equates to 33%. They must normally get around 7MPG.
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2008 :  11:51:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaman

Now i am confused, first thying is you are saying thats its impossable to create hydrogen from the water4gas system, and now you say a 6 year old knows that, what is it, does it work or not!!!!


If you reread all my replies, you will find that I never said it's impossible to create hydrogen from those little mason jar things. All they do is electrolosys, which of course breaks water into hydrogen and oxygen.

quote:

The video dones not say anything about burning water, he states "Gas from Water".



The title of the main video showing when you open the users channel is "Exploding Water! Browns hydrogen gas goes BANG water4gas greenville sc = installer spartanburg". It is clearly not "exploding water" as the title claims, but "exploding hydrogen". I refuse to look at the other videos since they are all parts of this pyramid scheme and every time that "views" stat goes up the scam is being fed.

quote:

So i take it that the hydrogen and oxygen from water do burn (I am much older than 6) and have added that mix to my vehicle combustion chamber and because of that mixture with the gasoline mix there is a COMPLETE burn due to hydrogen being added producing a increase in power adding mileage, oh thats not possible is it Aaron.



It is not possible to use engine electrical power to break water into hydrogen enough and oxygen for a measurable increase in mileage. If a system could create enough hydrogen and oxygen to supplement normal fuel flow, use a huge amount of electricity (stuff I've already posted tells you how much). To create that electricity via the alternator (rather, a massively upgraded unit) would use more engine power then you would recover.

If you want something decent to inject into you engine, take a look at Nitrous Oxide. It's been used for years and contains a hell of a lot more oxygen then so-called "HHO". Additionally as it evaporates it rapidly cools the intake mixture, improving air density and cylinder filling. Of course, a 10 pound cylinder only lasts a few minutes due to the shear amount of gas required.

quote:

Maybe a little more research is needed, like a google search for Browns Gas will help with this subject matter, but for me i have already proven it not only to myself first, but many others who trust my judgement and have seen it work.



OK. I'll search "browns gas" on Google and post of a few of the links I found. I'll ignore obvious scam sites though:

First hit is a Popular Mechanics page about fuel saving myths. Hmmm...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4264939.html

Next useful hit is a chemistry prof saying it will never work:
http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=51072.0

Here's a forum discussing "brown's gas" where they say it's a rather poor welding gas, and debunk the HHO scam:
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=9&t=10506

Apparently Popular Mechanics is going to make their own mason jar thingie and deubunk it. Gee, wonder what the result will be?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/08/popular-mechanics-to-debunk-the-run-your-car-on-water-myth/

A little article showing common calculations to debunk this garbage:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Water-cell-for-car-with-9-volt-battery/?comments=all

History of perpetual motion machines shows up as a result?!
http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html

The Pseudoscience Lab:
http://www.tinaja.com/pseudo01.html

I'm having a really hard time finding anything confidence inspiring, though I did include the "-water4gas" operator in my Google search to try and keep the scams out of my results. Hm, perhaps that's the reason I'm not finding anything "helpful"?

quote:

In the end (and this is the end for me) I get to cheet OPEC and the BIG OIL COMPANYS a bunch of US Dollars and keep them for myself, all from a jar of water and baking soda, I LOVE IT and IT WORKS!


If that's what makes you happy, then go for it. And if the device subconsciously changes you driving style and you get better mileage because of it, then I guess it works...though not in the way they intend it to. But if you believe this thing is actually producing enough hydrogen to supplement your fuel consumption, then you are flat out wrong.

Meh, I "cheat" OPEC and Big Oil whenever I drive my Honda Insight. Oh wait a sec...Honda made that car to achieve the highest mileage of any production car at all costs...so why don't I see an electrolosys cell under the hood? Hmmm....

quote:

Originally posted by spaman

Oh, by the way, i am off for the next six weeks and have proven this to a very large trucking company here in NC, i will be installing a system on one of their over the road tractors, i have offerd a 30 day trial with a 2 mpg improvement (that will be a 33% increase) or i will give him $900.00. I have put my money on the line, by the way i have created an escrow account for this offer so the money will be available to him if the system does not work, unlike the link you posted above, a 1 million dollar reward that nobody will ever see, and better yet they require a $5000.00 entry fee, talk about a scam.



It's really going to suck when you loose your money. I admire your dedication to the scam and your drive, but regardless of how much money is involved (and there is a LOT invested into this garbage) the end result is the same.
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2008 :  11:55:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
This post is general content for the thread and not in reply to anyone in specific.

A few weeks ago a kid proudly opened the hood of his full size GM truck and showed me the Vortec V8, complete with mason jar electrolosys cell mounted to the battery tray. He was very excited that it was improving his mileage, even though I was explaining to him that not only is that flat out impossible, but his setup was just plain dangerous (jumper cables across the engine, random wiring everywhere, etc.). He'd have none of it, and I was about to give up, then I noticed something.

The jar was plumped into the intake manifold through a vacuum port. The tube led to the jar. On the lid of a the jar was another small valve, open to the outside air. So here we have an air source into the engine that arrives in the intake manifold past the mass airflow meter.

As he opened the valve, his idle changed. He told me that was the effect of the hydrogen. Of course, the idle was changing due to the big vacuum leak introduced into the intake. Also, of course, that same vacuum leak leans out the mixture...

I think you see where I'm going with this...
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2008 :  5:22:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
The founder of Water4Gas, Eyal Siman-Tov AKA Ozzie Freedom is a known scammer with a LONG history of bilking gullible people out of their hard earned money.

Here is his resume:
http://www.sanecomputers.com/articles/resume/eyal.htm

Much of what is listed is highly suspect, if not an outright scam. For example, under "Entrepreneur" it states:
Inventor, Developer
Magnet4Cash - Business Opportunities Center
Studio City, California, USA
www.Magnet4Cash.com

Magnet4cash .com? Sounds bit similar to Water4Gas doesn't it? In fact, it's nothing but a redirect to Water4Gas!

He claims to have invented a revolutionary new computer at his http://www.sanecomputers.com site that is immune to virus attacks:

"This unique algorithm - OSCAR - makes the SC sealed off from, and completely immune to: bugs, errors, viruses, crashes and security holes of any kind. Phew!"

Check out the Profile page at http://www.sanecomputers.com/articles/sane-computer-article00.htm . Complete with naked picture of Jennifer Anniston. No, I'm not kidding...

The Products page ( http://www.sanecomputers.com/sane-computer-products.htm ) contains a dubious anti-spyware application, a bio-electrical pendant that's supposed to shield the wearer from EMF, and a "marketing education" course that promises "cash like clockwork".

The resume contains references to companies that don't exists, individuals impossible to verify, and suspicious looking letters of recommendation.

Apparently he's a scientologist, so you are basically 100% sure at that point that he's crazy.

Here's a forum post with the gory details of Ozzie Freedom the scammer:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=326721&sid=9e81609b77b9d7118e3ccabe318350e6
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2008 :  5:28:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
In addition, search Google or YouTube for "water4gas scam" and see what you get. At first glance, a lot of promising sites and videos with titles like "Water4 gas scam revealed!", "Scientific evidence HHO is a scam!", "WATER4GAS debunked", etc. Yet all of these sites and videos are the same: They start off saying tricking the viewer into thinking they are going to get some information, and then fall into the same old sales pitch that HHO/Water4Gas/hydroboosting/whatever this BS is called is revolutionary and true!

Seems that a LOT of people are spending considerable time and effort to spam half the Internet with this garbage, to the point where searching anything involving HHO and Water4Gas turns up the sales pitch again and again.

Try it yourself. Search YouTube for "water4gas debunked" or "water4gas scam". 99% of the videos that appear are people trying to sell the system and/or convince use it works.

Now seriously, would a legitimate product need such suspicious marketing techniques? Hardly...
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Aug 17 2008 :  4:47:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I've been doing a bit of research on this subject to get some actual scientific detail in this thread and I must say, it's been very difficult. The search engines are so utterly polluted with Water4Gas scams that it is exceptionally difficult to find real data. Any search involving any kind of supplemental hydrogen system just gets routed back to the Water4Gas, Browns gas and HHO scam sites and the same runaround. These people have put serious effort into spamming all search engines to the point where any "regular" person would quickly give up and probably fall for the scam.

I don't think I even need to point out that this is shady marketing at it's worst.

I did find a few actual studies of how adding hydrogen can improve the combustion on natural gas, gasoline and diesel vehicles. Again, it's well known that adding a bit of hydrogen to a gasoline engine results in a fuel efficiency increase. This is due to several factors covered below. Of course, propane has a similar effect and has been used in diesel engines for many years. Methane and CNG work as well. But what methane/propane/CNG injection do differently is that the gas comes from an onboard cylinder, not some kind of jam-jar scam-machine. Hydrogen from an onboard cylinder would then obviously work very well. The issue is that all of these cylinders need to be refilled, and often.

The first study deals with adding hydrogen to a compressed natural gas engine. The PDF document (10 pages) can be found here:
http://gate.its.ucdavis.edu/enrollment/proposal05/vernon05

This study concludes through testing that adding hydrogen to a CNG engine will significantly decrease the emission of NOX, and allow you to run a leaner CNG/air mix, thus saving fuel. See the graph on page 5 for details.

However, on page 6 we find out how much hydrogen is actually required:

This configuration, in combination with the EGR results in less than 10ppm exhaust gas NOx emissions. At low power settings, the resultant fuel composition is approximately 60% H2, 11% CO, and 29% CH4 by volume. As engine output power increases, the ratio of hydrogen to methane decreases. At 100 kW output, the composition changes to approximately 28% H2, 8% CO, and 66% CH4 by volume. At power levels above 100 kW, the hydrogen content falls below the concentration necessary to support the level of charge dilution required for low NOx operation.

At low throttle, 60% hydrogen is needed to achieve the positive effects. Well duh, if you are now burning 60% hydrogen, you're obviously burning a hell of a lot less of your primary fuel (CNG in this case). At an output of 100KW (134HP), only 28% hydrogen is possible. Above that level, the amount of hydrogen that can be added to the mixture is apparently too small to make a difference.

You can see a massive amount of hydrogen is necessary to effect a change. This study uses a chemical recuperator (reformer) to pull hydrogen from CNG for use in the system. The recuperator is run by waste exhaust heat, which as we all know, internal combustion engines have in large quantities. In fact, most of what goes into the fuel tank ends up out of the exhaust pipe in the form of heat.

Notice how they don't mention electrolysis anywhere as a viable source of hydrogen. No mention of mason jars under the hood, Brown's gas or HHO.

The next study is US Department Of Energy Study on the effects of adding hydrogen to a spark ignited (SI) internal combustion engine:
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/770963-RsXSxW/native/770963.pdf

The study is 10 pages long and uses an off the shelf 2.3 litre four cylinder gasoline engine as a test case.

You don't even need to read past the first three lines in the Abstract to learn they are not talking about jam-jar electrolysis cells:

It is well known that hydrogen addition to spark-ignited (SI) engines can reduce exhaust emissions and increase efficiency. Micro plasmatron fuel converters can be used for onboard generation of hydrogen-rich gas by partial oxidation of a wide range of fuels. These plasma boosted microreformers are compact, rugged, and provide rapid response.

Again, we all know that adding hydrogen will improve mileage and reduce NOX (lower combustion temps). Additionally this study mentions the lean mixtures allowed by hydrogen allow much more EGR, further reducing NOX.

What's a "plasma boosted reformer"? From page 4 of the study:

Plasmatrons provide highly controllable, ohmic heating of gases to elevated temperatures. At these temperatures, the gas is partially ionized. The increased temperatures, ionization levels, and mixing provided by plasmatron heating accelerate reformation of hydrocarbon fuels into hydrogen rich gas. The high temperatures can be used for reforming a wide range of hydrocarbon fuels into hydrogen-rich gas without using a catalyst.

Sounds a little different then a mason jar and coil of wire, doesn't it? Refer to the illustration (fig 1) on page 4. Note the text that says it is a multi-kilowatt plastmatron. At 12V, 1KW is 83.3A. The average alternator in a car ranges from 80-120A. And this uses multiple kilowatts to operate. The plasmatron used in the study required 1.5KW of electricity to run.

Oh, and it doesn't reform water. It reforms an existing hydrocarbon rich fuel. So we're talking propane, methane, gasoline, etc. One minor detail is that water doesn't contain enough hydrogen.

OK, let's now cut to the chase. On page 7 it states that:

Reformate was introduced into the engine via the intake manifold downstream of the throttle. The overall hydrogen addition was relatively small, being about 4% of fuel
heating value at the 2300 rpm condition and about 9% at the 1500 rpm condition.


They basically maxed their microplasmatron and were only able to get a 4% mixture of hydrogen at 2300 RPM. Their device is pulling hydrogen from a hydrocarbon rich fuel, not water. Using 1.5KW they were only able to get a 4% mixture. And of course while it did provide the expected results (see graphs on page 8, conclusion on page 9) it thoroughly demonstrates that there is no hope of a mason jar and a coil of wire generating enough hydrogen from water using the 12V power available from the alternator.

The final study is again provided by the US Department Of Energy and describes hydrogen use in a natural gas internal combustion engine. The primary goal was to reduce emissions, eliminate the need for catalytic converters and improve fuel economy.
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp?purl=/885936-5UDKxt/

It's 66 pages long and about 1MB in size. It's also some very heavy reading. The Executive Summary on page 10 and 11 already provides the conclusions, saying that hydrogen improves lean combustion in a natural gas engine and that about an 8% mixture is required to sustain lean operation. Similar to what has already been covered.

Hydrogen was supplied via a cylinder. No mention of onboard electrolysis being a viable source of hydrogen.

The three studies above give us basically a figure we can use to determine how much hydrogen is necessary to achieve a worthwhile result. Between 4% and 8% according to the 2nd and third study. Since the 2nd study plainly states that 4% is not enough, we'll use the 8% number.

Now, let's figure out how much air a typical 4 stroke internal combustion engine will use during operation. If this number is astronomically large, then we don't even have to bother calculating what 8% of it's fuel use is because simple common sense tells us a mason jar electrolyser can't generate enough gas.

Let's say we have a 2.5 litre four stroke engine. That's typical of what you would find in many vehicles these days. We'll run it at 2000 RPM for a nice easy cruise in overdrive.

Math time.

2.5L x 2000 RPM = 5000L

Divide by 4 since it's a 4 stroke:

5000L / 4 = 1250L per minute.

Cylinder clearing is not perfect, so let's assume that cylinder filling/exhaust clearing leaves about 90% of the cylinder open to accept more mixture:

1250L * 0.90 = 1125L

After all that, we see that the 2.5L 4 cylinder running at 2000 RPM will consume 1125 litres of air per minute of operation. That's a hell of a lot of air.

I can tell right now (and anyone with a bit of common sense can as well) that there's no way we can make enough hydrogen with a jam jar and coil of wire electrolysing at 12V when there are 1125 litres of air moving through this engine every minute.

8% of 1125 is 90 litres of hydrogen!

After doing a bit of searching (I searched eBay for "browns gas", "electrolyzer" and "water4gas"....once again, major scam results) I found most of these electrolyzers advertised to produce between 1L and 4L of hydrogen/oxygen per minute. This is impossible to verify from the add, and I won't waste my time constructing one of these things to measure gas flow. So while I don't believe that at all, we'll still use it to show us that we would need between 23 and 90 of these things to make the required 8% hydrogen.

So there you have it. Absolute, complete and utter bovine excretion. That's fancy speak for BULLSHIT!
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mrgone
Nobel Prize Winner

USA
1176 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2008 :  9:46:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I remember Tesla said something like , there was enough energy in one cubit of atmosphere to power a whole city. I guess he was saying, we just have not invented the transducers to convert it. Maybe we could build one that is one cubit per volume meaning not necessarily square or round. I guess it would have to be shaped like a wind mill with solar paint on it and thermo-couplers and what else could be put on it. Please don't say uranium...lol.
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davezzr
Apprentece

8 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2008 :  08:12:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,Ive been reading with interest all the views regarding HOD.I myself respect everyones right to an opinion,whether an educated opinion or gleaned from listening to too many sceptics.You have been talking about water4gas and all the hype or scams surrounding it.I have actually seem a water4gas unit running or rather three hooked up together.And i have no doubt in my view that this HOD system doesnt and will never produce any significant amount of useable hydrogen.And what is the air valve for exactly? certainly not for pressure release.The whole thing runs off the alternator at around 7amp and produces about a cupfull of gas in a minute which will have absolutly no effect on mpg.just a plastic jar wedged into the engine bay doing nothing.Thats my knockback for water4gas,now on to me ive been working on my own HOD generator for just over a year useing info from all over the web and suiting it to my own thoughts.It has to be said from my experiance that fuel improvements have been startling to say the least,but ther are still refinements to be made.My unit does draw a lot of amps once it reaches temperature (which needs to be stabalised with a PWM).I am producing at lower amps 1/2 litre per minute or 30 litres per hour rising to over 1 litre a minute at the higher amps giving a 12mpg increase in my 1.8l mazda (increase from 35mpg to 47mpg highway constant)
As ive said ive been testing my unit for quite a while and making improvements along the way and the increased mpg has remained a constant,i have disconected the unit from time to time after each improvement to validate the increases and the increases remain...so im quite pleased and dont care what anyone else thinks,i know it works for me
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audioguru
Nobel Prize Winner

Canada
4218 Posts

Posted - Sep 08 2008 :  11:19:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave,
You are making a very small amount of HHO. It is fooling the engine's computer into running the mixture too lean which increases mpg, increases nitrous oxide pollution and burns the valves and pistons.
You might have exactly the same results with a vacuum leak.
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2008 :  10:03:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davezzr

And what is the air valve for exactly? certainly not for pressure release.



That's exactly one of the issues. The air valve allows unmetered air to enter the intake manifold after the throttle body, thus creating a vacuum leak. Some cars are more sensitive then others. Cars with air flow meters (AFM, MAF, etc.) will be very sensitive to leaks. Speed density vehicles will not be as sensitive. A vacuum leak can lean out the mixture CONSIDERABLY. The one "HHO" system I saw first hand on a V8 truck had this effect. When the valve was opened (and not before the valve was opened, even if the "HHO" generator was operating) the engine would idle poorly. Odd, you would think that if the mason jar was making enough gas to effect the engine, the idle would have changed anytime it was switched on regardless of the position of the air valve?

Another annoyance is the word "HHO". Seriously, since when is it "HHO" and not more properly H2O? Remembering back to my high school chemistry class, hydrogen exists as H2 in gas form since it likes to bond to itself due to the free electron. I guess "HHO" is slightly easier then writing "H2-O" or "H2 O".

quote:
Thats my knockback for water4gas,now on to me ive been working on my own HOD generator for just over a year useing info from all over the web and suiting it to my own thoughts.



What is HOD? Hydrogen, oxygen and ? D?

quote:
It has to be said from my experiance that fuel improvements have been startling to say the least,but ther are still refinements to be made.My unit does draw a lot of amps once it reaches temperature (which needs to be stabalised with a PWM).



I was just about to jump all over you for falling into the trap of thinking you are resonating water with PWM to make it break apart more easily. Then I realized you were using it for current limit as it should be.

FYI, the resonant frequency required to split water is somewhere in the low THz range according to my research. Exact frequency depends on who you ask...

quote:

I am producing at lower amps 1/2 litre per minute or 30 litres per hour rising to over 1 litre a minute at the higher amps giving a 12mpg increase in my 1.8l mazda (increase from 35mpg to 47mpg highway constant)


That would seem to fly in the face of known physical laws.

Unless of course your device is actually a plasmatron based reformer, which can actually produce enough hydrogen to make a measurable difference. 12 MPG still seems quite impossible without massive cylinders of hydrogen stored in the trunk. And the fact that most gasoline engines can't run hydrogen concentrations that high at moderate to high loads (see third study a few posts above).

I suspect you are seeing improvements due to introducing a large vacuum leak into the system. Without knowing which "1.8L Mazda" you are referring to I can only guess. Mazda has almost always used AFM based EFI systems (based around the L-Jetronic in the early 80s to mid 90s) which are highly sensitive to vacuum leaks.

quote:
...so im quite pleased and dont care what anyone else thinks,i know it works for me


I've talked to people convinced that sticking two magnets on their fuel lines has given them a 20% increase in fuel economy. Real scientific data consisting of a double blind test with multiple prototypes subjected to exactly the same conditions (ie. chassis dyno in a climate controlled cell) is the only thing that matters.
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Aaron Cake
Administrator

Canada
6715 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2008 :  10:32:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Aaron Cake's Homepage  Send Aaron Cake an ICQ Message  Send Aaron Cake a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
One other thing that just popped into my head:

What do none of these "HHO pushers" seem to be running their engines are fully standalone EFI systems? If they are looking for the maximum mileage increase, then surly that would be one of the first areas to look at. After all, factory ECUs, up until a few years ago, were always rather crude. Installing a Haltech, Motec, Wolf, Electromotive (note that the Electromotive was used in one of the studies quoted above) or even the Megasquirt and tuning the engine lean while keeping with a safe ignition advance would yield dramatic improvements. And then the engine could even be tuned to operate properly with aux hydrogen injection. Hell, all of these ECUs have PWM outputs that could totally control the "HHO" generator! Egads!

Or it could simply be that anyone capable of wiring up a standalone and then tuning it already knows that introducing a minuscule bit of hydrogen and oxygen into the intake would be pointless.

Along the same lines, patents have existed for supplementary hydrogen generators for internal combustion engines for as long as those engines have been in use. There are thousands of patents out there for systems to get a little hydrogen into the engine. With so many options, and auto manufacturers scrambling to make vehicles achieve higher fuel economy, why are we not seeing these devices (or a unit based on them) installed from the factory?

The conspiracy theorist would say it's because auto manufacturers purposely produce fuel hungry vehicles because they are supported by the oil industry. That concept doesn't hold water. Why then did Honda make 100 MPG capable Insights for 6 years? What about the Prius which seems to average around 45 MPG and has sold a LOT? What about the VW Lupo? SMART cars, while not stellar, get better mileage then most of the vehicles on the road and are very popular. Hell, back in the day we had the Geo Metro, Datsun 510, etc. etc. Even today the modern Civic will pull 40 MPG on the highway.

None of these cars have "HHO" generators because THEY DON'T WORK.

Or it might be though that a consumer doesn't want to be adding water to their vehicle. Well, don't they already add fuel all the time? Don't you think that someone would be more then willing to dump a little H2O under the hood if it increased their mileage by 10% or more? Those who didn't just wouldn't see the extra mileage...Hell, Mercedes has dramatically decreased tailpipe emissions in their BlueTec diesels by injecting an "AdBlue" additive which is essentially urine. This is stored in a separate tank and topped up every once and a while (about 1.5L is used per 100KM). AdBlue is injected into the exhaust stream before the cat.

Ford and GM are dying due to poor truck sales. Mostly due to high fuel prices. If it was a easy as bolting a simple hydrogen/oxygen source under the hood that is obviously cheap to manufacture to get great economy gains in big trucks, they would have already done it.
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davezzr
Apprentece

8 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2008 :  7:20:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi and thanks for your indepth comments,and i would agree on some points with you.Having said that i have spent over a year checking,double checking and checking again that what seemed to be happening was happening and not a blind belief.The said vehicle has been on the analyser (professional)several times with the generator running and not running but still in situ.I did wonder if i was running lean but no noticable diffrences were recorded.as you say it would improve gas milage to a point wether noticable or not.but certainly not to the extent im showing.
I will be frank and say that when the unit peaks under load im usually driving so have no idea whats happening under the hood to the unit.For all i know it could be creating 2-3-4l gas per min i have no idea,but i do know it gets very hot pulling over 20amps im sure and liquid is disapearing at quite a rate.
Let me control the amperage first and we will see what happens,keep an open mind as i do.You may be right and ive wasted ayear of my life or i maybe just lucky enought to have a forgiving engine that likes the taste of hydrogen....
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davezzr
Apprentece

8 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2008 :  8:02:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are making a very small amount of HHO. It is fooling the engine's computer into running the mixture too lean which increases mpg, increases nitrous oxide pollution and burns the valves and pistons.
You might have exactly the same results with a vacuum leak.

Lamda tests prior to fitting the unit 0.9%
Lamda test after fitting 0.08%
What comes out of the tailpipe is cleaner than the air we breath

What is HOD? Hydrogen, oxygen and ? D?

Hydrogen on demand

I've talked to people convinced that sticking two magnets on their fuel lines has given them a 20% increase in fuel economy. Real scientific data consisting of a double blind test with multiple prototypes subjected to exactly the same conditions (ie. chassis dyno in a climate controlled cell) is the only thing that matters.

I read a lot of ads about these magnets,seperating the ion particles or whatever bla d bla.to give huge increases in mpg...not that i would fall for that gumpf.I dare say quite a few people proberbly took a chance at a few $s..and may well have convinced themselves it might just do some good

That would seem to fly in the face of known physical laws.

Unless of course your device is actually a plasmatron based reformer, which can actually produce enough hydrogen to make a measurable difference. 12 MPG still seems quite impossible without massive cylinders of hydrogen stored in the trunk. And the fact that most gasoline engines can't run hydrogen concentrations that high at moderate to high loads (see third study a few posts above).


Plasmatron reformer? sounds suspiciously very scientific
12mpg did seem rather optomistic at first reading and i did queary my own maths several times.My maths were not wrong and as ive said previously the same increase has been stable and continuous.If it turns out to be a combination of Hydrogen/oxygen gas and an vacuum leak that gives these results then i will keep the leak (if you knew the cost of fuel in the UK you would do the same.$9usd per gallon)
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audioguru
Nobel Prize Winner

Canada
4218 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2008 :  9:57:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fuel is cheap. It comes from the ground and grows on trees. Go talk to your polititians about its high taxes.
Today 87 octane gasoline is $1.25/l in my part of Canada. Do you pay double? Triple? Why?
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