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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 4:00:20 PM
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Hi!: as you all know, the AMC Pacer was designed around the Wankel engine that GM never put into production; it seems they had some trouble solving the exhaust emissions issue. Anybody knows if the Mazda 13B RE, or other will fit the Pacer's Chrysler 3 speed automatic gearbox (Torque command-Torqueflite 904)?. Is there any previous experience on this?. Somebody can give a tip? Thank you in advance, best regards, salut + JGA
AMC 258 6L 2V carburettor gave 95 hp at 4'300 rpm,and a torque of 250 Nm at 1'800 rpm, slower than Mazda. (The fuel use of my AMC Pacer ranges between 12 and 18/lit/100 km,(12-20 mpg?) depending on trafic and driving style) |
Edited by - urquiola on Aug 18 2010 06:22:53 AM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 10:38:10 AM
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It is funny that GM had emission issues with the rotary, because Mazda was able to easily meet and exceed the emission standards of the day using the rotary because of the low NOx output and a thermal reactor exhaust system.
I don't know anything about the Pacer gearbox (Google didn't turn up much either) but it is safe to say there is no chance the 13B will fit the stock bellhousing. Why use that transmission anyway? Use the 5 speed R-type Mazda transmission installed on all 2nd gen RX-7 turbos. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 11:33:03 AM
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| They said they have solved the fuel use question, but were unable to fix the emissions, probably the CO and HC ones. There is only one SAE paper published by General Motors on their Wankel RCE research, that summarizes the theoretical ways to address the emissions problem. Thank you, salud + Jgrosay |
Edited by - urquiola on Jul 14 2010 08:41:26 AM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2010 : 10:45:14 AM
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| The fuel use issue is fundamental to the design of the rotary. It is very, very difficult to make a rotary get fuel economy similar to a piston engine. The long and narrow shape of the combustion chamber is the issue. Direct injection helps, but only a little. All of Mazda's rotary engines have had similar fuel economy since about '85 or so. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2010 : 12:29:56 PM
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| The subject of surface/volume ratio in Wankel and reciprocating engines is addressed in a figure, pag 339 of the 1971 book by Jan P. Norbye: "Wankel engine, design, developments, applications" (Chilton Book Co). However I remember having read more recent discussions about this, I'll let you all know when I recover them. In highway, the RE has an advantage in its much better volumetric efficiency, it is the low rpm part of performance that penalizes RCEs. The enormous 41 lit chamber displacement gas fueled Ingersoll-Rand engine showed a better SFC and longer life than reciprocating counterparts. I'll keep on looking about S/V ratio, that is not constraint to the highest compression zone of the combustion chamber, but also to the whole intake and exhaust stroke, as you all know. Salud + |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2010 : 06:34:28 AM
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| The 3 speed automatic gearbox mounted in the AMC Pacer were Chrysler Torqueflite 904; yes the surface/volume ratio during the admission compression and expansion exhaust parts of Otto and Diesel cycles (reciprocating engines, 2 stroke engines are a very different thing) can be even worse than during the Wankel cycle, you all know Otto and Wankel cycles are not the same, and that the expansion part of cycle is much longer in a RCE. Salut + |
Edited by - urquiola on Jul 26 2010 06:14:02 AM |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2010 : 08:33:35 AM
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| The Mazdas have improved their SFC and road and street fuel consumption in more than 30% from the early designs to the current Renesis engine. Further improvements expected, and this kind of engine is very suitable to adiabatic cycle (No cooling) and Hydrogen fuel functioning. Hope we see soon a single rotor small displacement RE unit! |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2010 : 10:51:23 AM
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They say there is an improvement, but all my RX-8 owning friends are getting similar mileage to their previous RX-7s. While the EPA rating is a bit higher in reality it doesn't really improve.
Yes, the rotary has great potential as a hydrogen fuelled engine. Too bad that hydrogen has almost no potential as a practical fuel. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 1:48:31 PM
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| RX-8 Renesis gives more Kw than the RX-7, it's not surprising that street fuel consumption does not differ very much |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2010 : 10:47:53 AM
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| True enough, but we aren't talking about WOT fuel consumption. We are talking about standard city/highway part throttle consumption. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2010 : 11:09:06 AM
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| Yeah!. You're right, standard part throttle city/highway fuel use is the feeble point of Wankel, it's a full opened throttle/high rpm machine. Salut + |
Edited by - urquiola on Aug 10 2010 08:53:02 AM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2010 : 10:41:12 AM
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| Unfortunately, unless Mazda doe release the 16X with direct injection, fuel economy is always going to be an issue with the rotary. The nice thing about the 16X is that they say it will run on everything from gasoline to kerosene to diesel. Which includes biofuels. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2010 : 10:00:50 AM
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| Somebody giving a tip on whether it's OK using a Mazda Rx-7 engine, or better spend more by buying an used Renesis engine? |
Edited by - urquiola on Sep 14 2010 03:02:02 AM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 11 2010 : 10:43:01 AM
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It will come down to cost. If you are looking to stay naturally aspirated and don't mind spending the money, the Renesis is the way to go. Keep in mind that you will need to spend more on an engine management system to control it, as it needs 3 stage of injection and 3 outputs to run all the port valves.
The 13B from the RX-7 came in either NA or turbo form, and would be the cheapest option. You can run it with the stock ECU from the RX-7, or any number of inexpensive standalones. |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2010 : 03:04:33 AM
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| This week there is a 9'000 miles Pacer Station Wagon with no engine, as it was adapted for an electric engine, now dismounted, with an starting price of $ 500 in ebay.com - SOLD OUT ! |
Edited by - urquiola on Oct 25 2010 06:16:12 AM |
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urquiola
Apprentice
Spain
97 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 12:06:07 PM
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| What can you tell me about the 12A 1984-85 RX-7 engine?. I bought a core of it. |
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Topic |
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Mounting a rotary engine in an AMC Pacer
