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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 04 2004 : 10:23:42 PM
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Well for those of you who know what the CNE is, I bought a Firefly electric scooter there today for $100 (after tax).
I can't find the official website for Firefly, but http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64676&item=3697380636&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW is the scooter I bought.
Before anyone says I should have built one myself, I prefer how nicely this is packaged, and the seat, and the twist handle instead of a switch for throttle, etc.
Anyways, aside from the fact that I think it's seriously underpowered (100W motor, 2x 12V 2.3A batteries), it's very good.
What I was thinking was to replace the two batteries with four better ones, and add a switch to change between 12V and 24V (although I may have to do something different considering how slow it is on shallow inclines at 24V).
Also, I'd probably need a new charger if I got better batteries, because the one that came with it outputs 24V 400mA. The charger has a red LED and a green LED, although I haven't used it yet because I was told to drain the batteries, charge them, drain, charge, drain, and charge, before expecting them to hold a full charge. But back to the charger, would a higher current charger with the red/green LEDs (I assume one lights up when it's charging, the other when it's done and is supplying the lower voltage) be expensive?
And my last thought (for now): do you think I should try to get a better motor?
Edit: Now that I think of it, is there a way to tell what the amp-hour rating on my batteries is?
Edited by - canadiancow on Sep 04 2004 10:59:05 PM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2004 : 09:11:15 AM
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quote:
Well for those of you who know what the CNE is, I bought a Firefly electric scooter there today for $100 (after tax).
I can't find the official website for Firefly, but http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64676&item=3697380636&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW is the scooter I bought.
Before anyone says I should have built one myself, I prefer how nicely this is packaged, and the seat, and the twist handle instead of a switch for throttle, etc.
I've seen those at various shows. For the price, they can't be beat. You would be hard pressed to build one for around $100.
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Anyways, aside from the fact that I think it's seriously underpowered (100W motor, 2x 12V 2.3A batteries), it's very good.
Way underpowered.  And with only 2.3AH of lead, there's no way it could live up to the manufacturers range claims of 10-15KM per charge. It's probably closer to 3-5KM. And 15 KM/H? Not likely. 
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What I was thinking was to replace the two batteries with four better ones, and add a switch to change between 12V and 24V (although I may have to do something different considering how slow it is on shallow inclines at 24V).
So you just want more range? Instead of using multiple batteries, just use two higher capacity batteries. If you already have a throttle and controller, why the 12/24V switch? Though the controller this scooter comes with is probably not ideal, it should handle the longer runtime fine.
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Also, I'd probably need a new charger if I got better batteries, because the one that came with it outputs 24V 400mA.
You don't need a new charger. It will just charge your larger battery pack slower.
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The charger has a red LED and a green LED, although I haven't used it yet because I was told to drain the batteries, charge them, drain, charge, drain, and charge, before expecting them to hold a full charge.
Sounds like the quickest way to kill your battery pack I know of. You should immediately charge to full charge, and treat the pack gently (no more then 50% discharge) for the first few cycles. After about 5 cycles, you can do a "complete" discharge, which means no more then 80% dead. If you go past that, you will shorten the life if your pack.
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But back to the charger, would a higher current charger with the red/green LEDs (I assume one lights up when it's charging, the other when it's done and is supplying the lower voltage) be expensive?
No idea. I'm sure you can find 24V chargers on the market, considering the amount of e-scooters around these days. But you don't need to change the charger.
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And my last thought (for now): do you think I should try to get a better motor?
Oh god, hell yes! But if you do, you will need a "bigger" controller, and may run into mounting/space issues.
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Edit: Now that I think of it, is there a way to tell what the amp-hour rating on my batteries is?
Read the writing on the side of the battery.
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2004 : 10:11:31 AM
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What I was thinking was to replace the two batteries with four better ones, and add a switch to change between 12V and 24V (although I may have to do something different considering how slow it is on shallow inclines at 24V).
So you just want more range? Instead of using multiple batteries, just use two higher capacity batteries. If you already have a throttle and controller, why the 12/24V switch? Though the controller this scooter comes with is probably not ideal, it should handle the longer runtime fine.
Yeah I wasn't really thinking when I said I wanted a switch like that...I forgot I had a speed controller already. About the batteries, I want more range and enough power to go up some hills (not too steep). I guess two 12AH batteries would work fine for the range, but I'm not sure about the power.
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You don't need a new charger. It will just charge your larger battery pack slower.
After using the scooter out of the box (I hadn't charged it yet) for over an hour, and then plugging it in, it was using the float charge. I don't think the charger's very good. I have schematics and instructions for a better one that you can see at http://www.canadiancow.com/sla-charger.pdf I would like to be able to charge it at "fast" rate (fast meaning no more than 4-5 hours).
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Do you think I should try to get a better motor?
Oh god, hell yes! But if you do, you will need a "bigger" controller, and may run into mounting/space issues.
I finally opened my scooter, and it has a MY68 motor, input 24VDC 6A, output 100W.
The batteries are Enduring (I think that's the company name...they've got a symbol in the middle of their name) CB4.5-12, 4.5AH 12V batteries.
The controller is....weird....I'll have to open it to get any information about it. All I know is that everything plugs into it.
Any recommendations on what kind of motor to look for, and where I could get a "bigger" controller? I don't know if getting better batteries would increase the power of the motor at all, but I want/need to be able to go up some inclines.
Edited by - canadiancow on Sep 07 2004 2:44:41 PM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2004 : 09:03:04 AM
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Yeah I wasn't really thinking when I said I wanted a switch like that...I forgot I had a speed controller already. About the batteries, I want more range and enough power to go up some hills (not too steep). I guess two 12AH batteries would work fine for the range, but I'm not sure about the power.
The only way you're going to increase power is to raise the voltage, or use a larger motor. Putting in higher capacity batteries will help a little, because the voltage won't sag as much under heavy discharge.
If you increase the voltage, you will likely then have to change your controller and charger.
If you install a bigger motor, you will also have to change the controller.
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After using the scooter out of the box (I hadn't charged it yet) for over an hour, and then plugging it in, it was using the float charge. I don't think the charger's very good. I have schematics and instructions for a better one that you can see at http://www.canadiancow.com/sla-charger.pdf I would like to be able to charge it at "fast" rate (fast meaning no more than 4-5 hours).
The charger itself is pretty dumb. The simple charge electronics are built into the controller. Essentially, they "dump current until battery reaches about 14V, then float charge". I use a homemade charger that does the same thing and have been happy with it.
It sounds like your charger is less aggressive. Good for battery life, bad for quick charging. [;(] I charge the 20AH of lead on my scooter in about 1 hour.
I looked at the schematic. I'm pretty sure I saw that before, and it is, well, impressive. WAY overkill. My charger has a few diodes, capacitors, resistors, a transistor and an TRIAC. Oh, and an LED and transformer. It's based on a kit from Cana-Kits... The link is:
http://www.canakit.com/Contents/Items/CK120.asp
Very cheap, works very well. I have it adjusted to about 14V float.
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I finally opened my scooter, and it has a MY68 motor, input 24VDC 6A, output 100W.
OK.
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The batteries are Enduring (I think that's the company name...they've got a symbol in the middle of their name) CB4.5-12, 4.5AH 12V batteries.
Squarish? Sounds pretty standard. You'll find them in alarm systems, UPSs, etc. Same batteries I use.
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The controller is....weird....I'll have to open it to get any information about it. All I know is that everything plugs into it.
It's not as weird as you think. There is a battery input, charge input, motor output, throttle connection, then auxillary connections for 12V lights, a brake light connection, and a few others.
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Any recommendations on what kind of motor to look for, and where I could get a "bigger" controller? I don't know if getting better batteries would increase the power of the motor at all, but I want/need to be able to go up some inclines.
I had the link around...Let me see if I can find it....
Found it: http://oatleyelectronics.com/bcorner.html
These motors (the 300/350W ones) look VERY similar to what I use on my scooter. Very good motor.
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2004 : 4:42:54 PM
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The charger itself is pretty dumb. The simple charge electronics are built into the controller. Essentially, they "dump current until battery reaches about 14V, then float charge". I use a homemade charger that does the same thing and have been happy with it.
It sounds like your charger is less aggressive. Good for battery life, bad for quick charging. [;(] I charge the 20AH of lead on my scooter in about 1 hour.
I looked at the schematic. I'm pretty sure I saw that before, and it is, well, impressive. WAY overkill. My charger has a few diodes, capacitors, resistors, a transistor and an TRIAC. Oh, and an LED and transformer. It's based on a kit from Cana-Kits... The link is:
http://www.canakit.com/Contents/Items/CK120.asp
Very cheap, works very well. I have it adjusted to about 14V float.
What did you have to do to adjust it to a 14V float? Also, (I've never really done anything with power supplies before) what voltage would I need the transformer to be? Would it matter if the transformer was above 5A?
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The controller is....weird....I'll have to open it to get any information about it. All I know is that everything plugs into it.
It's not as weird as you think. There is a battery input, charge input, motor output, throttle connection, then auxillary connections for 12V lights, a brake light connection, and a few others.
There's two pins for the battery, and two for the motor one one side of the controller. The other side has three for the throttle, two for the brakes (it's partly an electronic brake, but it also pulls a long wire that goes to the motor assembly, although it doesn't work very well), two for the charger, and two for the switch.
I'm sure I could hook in brake lights, but that would just drain power =P
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Any recommendations on what kind of motor to look for, and where I could get a "bigger" controller? I don't know if getting better batteries would increase the power of the motor at all, but I want/need to be able to go up some inclines.
I had the link around...Let me see if I can find it....
Found it: http://oatleyelectronics.com/bcorner.html
These motors (the 300/350W ones) look VERY similar to what I use on my scooter. Very good motor.
Hmmmm....the 300W motors (aside from being out of stock) are rated at 16.4A (200W is 11.0A). I was thinking of getting 12AH batteries, but 18 would be about the top end of my price range. I want to be able to go fairly long distances on this thing, so I'm worried about getting a motor that draws that much current.
As for a replacement controller, any idea where I could get one?
Thanks |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2004 : 09:10:13 AM
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What did you have to do to adjust it to a 14V float? Also, (I've never really done anything with power supplies before) what voltage would I need the transformer to be? Would it matter if the transformer was above 5A?
I adjusted the pot. You can set your final charge voltage from about 10V to 15V.
You can use any 24V center tapped transformer (non center tapped 12V units also work). I just used a 3A transformer I had around. You can use a transformer rated at > 5A, but the capacity will be unused. Also, it will be much larger physically.
My ultimate plan was to install this charger onto the scooter, and use a compact toroidial transformer and pull-out cord. But on a Razor, there just isn't any space...
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Hmmmm....the 300W motors (aside from being out of stock) are rated at 16.4A (200W is 11.0A). I was thinking of getting 12AH batteries, but 18 would be about the top end of my price range. I want to be able to go fairly long distances on this thing, so I'm worried about getting a motor that draws that much current.
You can upgrade the motor without changing batteries...Remember that a 300W motor means that it won't be constantly drawing 300W. Only when you need it's full power does it pull 300W and above. You can easily pull 16A from a set of 12AH batteries. Hell, surge testing on the batteries I use has shown that they will put 200A or so into a load for about 30 seconds.
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As for a replacement controller, any idea where I could get one?
Same link.
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2004 : 8:45:58 PM
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Slight problem....=(
My motor is like the 100W motor on that page (67mm Dia. X 97mm). The 200W and 300W motors are 100mm Dia. X 80mm. That makes my motor a bit longer , but a lot narrower.
The hole in the side of the chassis that the motor fits into has about enough room for an additional 3mm diameter., the inside of the chassis has a bit more than that.
Any suggestions?
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2004 : 2:56:18 PM
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Hm, is there room to ream out the hole?
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2004 : 2:08:32 PM
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I can't fit in a wider motor without moving the whole wheel/brake assembly...but what about mounting the motor somewhere else. If it was on top of the scooter, and at the back, I could still have the little "chain" connecting it to the wheel, and the size wouldn't really matter.
What do you think about that?
By the way, my brakes suck. The electronic part is fine, it shuts off the motor, but the mechanical part doesn't stop me at slow speeds on level ground.
Back to the controller, is there a way I could "upgrade" my current one with a few higher power components rather than buying a new one?
Edited by - canadiancow on Sep 26 2004 7:40:49 PM |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2004 : 4:20:52 PM
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Moving the motor will work fine, you just have to figure out a mounting arrangement...
You might be able to modify the controller. Without more info, I can only guess...Can you open it up and post pictures?
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2004 : 5:41:32 PM
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I'll see about the motor....but I won't know how to mount it unless I can see it, and I don't want to buy it if I won't be able to mount it.
For the controller, I have a picture uploaded at http://www.canadiancow.com/elec/controller.jpg
It's a low res. webcam, but it's the best I have. |
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Aaron Cake
Administrator
Canada
6718 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2004 : 09:03:17 AM
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There's gotta' be a way to get a better picture out of that webcam. All I see is a blur.
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2004 : 3:42:34 PM
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I'll see if I can borrow someone's digital camera, but for now, I can give you the following numbers:
On the PCB, it says 249036 in one spot and DF-2410HA in another spot. The only IC has ľA339PC and 8722 on it.
I tried searching all of those, but I get very few results, and none were useful. |
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canadiancow
Apprentice
Canada
104 Posts |
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cirvin
Nobel Prize Winner
USA
1542 Posts |
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n/a
DELETED (Inactive)
4 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2004 : 9:43:53 PM
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Hi there!
I have the exact same scooter (i'm in AUS) and I'm looking to do the same thing as you.
I would like to upgrade my motor to 200watts (300watts is illegal here), so I was wondering if you've had any luck trying to fit the larger, shorter motor into the smaller 100watt motor cavity? I'm going to start trying to experiment soon!
Mine goes quite slow, unless you kick off heaps while speeding up and kick some more, then it can keep up about 10-15 kmph.
But i could do without the kicking!
Has anyone here had any luck fitting a different sized motor into their scooter?
Thanks!
Jam from AUS
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Electric Scooter
